Curse

Sagius Truthbarron · Dec 27, 2007, 09:45 AM // 09:45

On the subject of grinding, I honestly think GW has a lot more grind than most MMORPGs. Why? Because all other MMORPGs have alot of things to do, places to go, and perspectives to explore. For example, if you PvE mostly in GW, you have beaten all the mission your only options are to:

1. Farm
2. Try for titles, many of which require tons of money, time, or just the tediousness of playing the same missions several times over.
3. Try to obtain prettier armor, weapons and mini pets. Totally pointless and once again requires step 1.
4. Stop playing Guild Wars until new content is released (good luck)

any other MMORPG offers:

1.Hunting monsters (not everyone's favorite, but some very much enjoy it)
2.Dungeons
3.Exploring, worlds in almost any other MMO are larger and more enjoyable to explore.
4. Professions and Crafting
5. Experience the world from another race's perspective, their quests, classes, and environment.

Not to mention, how long does it take for you to learn how to play to be PvP competent? It took me about 1000 hours to learn that how restrictive the game was in skill balancing, that only certain builds and tactics were actually useful in PvP. Hell, back in the day they didn't even tell us what the agro circle was, or about calling targets. Most people now are running around with a firestorm-healing monk build, with a res or some other nonsense.

You basically have to learn from a rude, egotistically Swedish guy who just fell out of Counterstrike, whose every other sentence is "ZOMG BBQ NUBCAKEZ, ZOMG PWNED!!!"

Atleast WoW teaches people how to play and is easy to understand, you don't have to look for hidden tips inside Mhenlo or already be "T3h L33ts4uc3".

netniwk · Dec 27, 2007, 09:50 AM // 09:50

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sagius Truthbarron

1. Farm
2. Try for titles, many of which require tons of money, time, or just the tediousness of playing the same missions several times over.
3. Try to obtain prettier armor, weapons and mini pets. Totally pointless and once again requires step 1.
4. Stop playing Guild Wars until new content is released (good luck)

any other MMORPG offers:

1.Hunting monsters (not everyone's favorite, but some very much enjoy it)
2.Dungeons
3.Exploring, worlds in almost any other MMO are larger and more enjoyable to explore.
4. Professions and Crafting
5. Experience the world from another race's perspective, their quests, classes, and environment.

1)what is the difference between 1 and1?
2)There are dungeons in GW....
3)The world in GW isn't that small,and more beautifull than most MMORPG's
4)Atleast you don't HAVE to get more expensive/harer to obtain gear.
5)true,will be in Gw2 though.

Sagius Truthbarron · Dec 27, 2007, 10:00 AM // 10:00

GW farming is mainly the process of clearing out dungeons just to advance a specific boss in hopes that he will drop a good item. Once, nobody does, do it all over again. Ok, maybe monster hunting isn't exactly a good example for things to do in MMORPGs, but I know quite alot of people that enjoy it and are dissatisfied with its absence from GW.

netniwk · Dec 27, 2007, 10:04 AM // 10:04

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sagius Truthbarron

GW farming is mainly the process of clearing out dungeons just to advance a specific boss in hopes that he will drop a good item. Once, nobody does, do it all over again. Ok, maybe monster hunting isn't exactly a good example for things to do in MMORPGs, but I know quite alot of people that enjoy it and are dissatisfied with its absence from GW.

What exactly do you understand under monster hunting?When I am vanquishing a hunt a whole (goredengine?) lot of monsters

Fril Estelin · Dec 27, 2007, 10:50 AM // 10:50

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sagius Truthbarron

1.Hunting monsters (not everyone's favorite, but some very much enjoy it)
2.Dungeons
3.Exploring, worlds in almost any other MMO are larger and more enjoyable to explore.
4. Professions and Crafting
5. Experience the world from another race's perspective, their quests, classes, and environment.

Strange. I beat all 3 campaigns and the expansion, still have HM to go. And yet I find that all these points are valid for GW (no dungeons? you don't own EoTN I guess or haven't experienced The deep, fow, uw, doa?; 10 professions?; high-end/endgame/BMP weapons?; tons of quests?). I guess it's a question of which glasses you're wearing, or which way you're looking at the game...

Back on the topic: I think the comparisons between GW and WoW fail for various reasons:
- most problems come from the huge range of subjective opinions (PvErs vs. PvPers, hardcore vs. casual, elitist vs. populist, visual vs. gameplay, skill vs. time); everyone sees the game world through its own experience, sometimes with the added confirmation of friends or guildies who share the same point of view;
- most comparisons need to take a lot of aspects into account, see the business model discussion where one needs to consider addiction and time to play to really understand the problem as a whole (instead of one particular aspect of the problem); comparing aspects one by one fail to capture GW's trully wide gameplaying experience (I'm a PvEr at heart but I liked the Factions mission where you have to play Fort Aspenwood and I'd like to try AB and enjoyed the Costume Brawl and Snowfights)

Last and not the least, I would like to add that Anet is targetting a particular community of players, smaller than the WoW crowd (which is confirmed by the merge of Blizzard and Activision, who becomes the biggest gaming company in the world ...) and with a more "subtle" vision of MMOs. It reminds me of Apple, who was targetting a much more specific hardware platform of computers so that they can run a more "nuanced" OS and applications, leading to the iPod for example. They privilege a balanced approach, instead of a more "raw" approach, not only purely based on numbers (lvl 70 vs 20, 8 vs. 30 skills, biggest gear vs. max weapons) but also based on the whole concept of the game: lore, storyline, co-op, graphics (Prophecies exemplifies that perfectly with its long storyline, range of landscapes, etc.).

I've never played WoW but it seems from what I heard of it that GW is much more intelligent than WoW (and the argument that cookie-cutter builds make the game so easy applies to both games!). But I won't fail to notice that my comment also applies to myself, and I mean be biaised due to my status of casual gamer. Re-reading Zinger's OP I think that he's (like some others here; and btw one wonders if, apart from the Q&A forum, GWGers are not those that no longer play GWs...) harcore gamer tending to the "l33t" (no offense, it does not put all harcore gamers in the same bad as there are a lot of different harcore gamers, it's more about addiction and time involved). What is obvious in these comparisons is that the focus is on the "high-end" of the games, the most difficult and latest during the game evolution. While for most, the interest of the game is in the middle, not at the end.

Vl Vl D · Dec 27, 2007, 10:50 AM // 10:50

For the last three years ive wondered what wow was and its been interesting to read about your insights of wow. The one thing that has me hooked with GW is I get to yell at my girl for no prot/infuse and its the only time I get to yell at her.Beats TS abuse.

Redfeather1975 · Dec 27, 2007, 11:11 AM // 11:11

Sagius Truthbarron, I don't think guild wars has lots of grind to it.
However, where the grind does exist, it's the quintessence of grind. lol

Cacheelma · Dec 27, 2007, 12:02 PM // 12:02

Quote:

Originally Posted by Malice Black

meh thats forced leveling, you can't count that. You don't need PvE skills and titles to be competitive in this game.

Define "Competitive".

My sister likes to have her lv20 char (with best gears she can find) staying in pre-sear and she's happy about it. Does that make her "less competitive" than others? (I doubt it)

I myself mostly played with heroes/henchmen so I don't quite need to compare my power with other players. I don't have max level for my title-based skills because I don't have time to grind. Does that make me "less competitive"? (I doubt it)

My friend likes to group with people. He says that's how online games are supposed to be played (true or not doesn't relevant here so just leave it at that). He also doesn't have time to grind for those title-based skills. Does that make him "less competitive"? (Yes)

I solo mostly in WoW because I don't have much time to play so I can't raid. I usually have to do something while playing and have to go afk once in a while so I usually can't group with people for instances. Does the fact that I don't have the best gears on my char make me "less competitive"? (I doubt it)

Some people in my guild raid a lot everyday. They need the best gears they can find in order to be powerful enough for some raid instances. So they have to grind for them. If they were wearing the same gears I have, would that make them "less competitive"? (YES!)

What's the difference again?

Solus Spartan · Dec 27, 2007, 12:26 PM // 12:26

Compare this. Wow has literally killed people, Guildwars just kills your soul.

Sha Noran · Dec 27, 2007, 12:40 PM // 12:40

Zinger, despite all of the shit that everyone gives you, you really don't deserve it. Being cynical about Guild Wars doesn't mean you don't know exactly what you're talking about... which you do.

I think that the primary reason you hear more Guild Wars players complaining about Guild Wars grind than you do WoW players complaining about WoW grind is because when you spend 20 hours straight raiding Black Temple, you have a chance of getting the sweetest and most powerful loot in the entire game... but when you spend 10 hours straight raiding Slaver's Exile in HM, you get a shitty Ritualist green that no one will even take from you for free.

Fril Estelin · Dec 27, 2007, 12:54 PM // 12:54

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sha Noran

I think that the primary reason you hear more Guild Wars players complaining about Guild Wars grind than you do WoW players complaining about WoW grind is because when you spend 20 hours straight raiding Black Temple, you have a chance of getting the sweetest and most powerful loot in the entire game... but when you spend 10 hours straight raiding Slaver's Exile in HM, you get a shitty Ritualist green that no one will even take from you for free.

You only see what you want to see. If you compare GW to WoW gear-wise, you're already looking at GW from the point of view of WoW main gaming aspect (but not the only one, of course). During your "raid" in Slaver's Exile, there may have been fun going through the dungeon, beating the monsters and bosses, discovering hidden treasures, play co-op in a non-pre-determined way (from what I've raid about WoW raids, they're more organised but more mechanic than GW's), looking at the nice grottos, flora and fauna, etc.

I think the only way you can start to reach some level of objectivity when comparing GW and WoW is to stop focusing on the "high end", start from the roots and then focus a lot on the "medium end" where most of the game is played (once more, you can go very quickly through the game, if you do the minimal number of things, but I guess both games have much more to give than these minima), slowly going up the ladder.

Unless you want only a "high-end comparison of GW and WoW"?

Cacheelma · Dec 27, 2007, 12:55 PM // 12:55

Quote:

Originally Posted by Solus Spartan

Compare this. Wow has literally killed people, Guildwars just kills your soul.

How do you know people have never died because of Guild Wars? (I don't think you can say a normal game can actually "kill" someone) Maybe someone has died, but the game isn't popular enough for the reporters to care?

Do I have to, say, kill myself off by playing GW without eating for you to say that "oh, they're comparable"?

Fril Estelin · Dec 27, 2007, 01:10 PM // 13:10

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cacheelma

How do you know people have never died because of Guild Wars? (I don't think you can say a normal game can actually "kill" someone) Maybe someone has died, but the game isn't popular enough for the reporters to care?

Though the initial point was somewhat "moot", I'd say that if that had happened, it'd be in the news. Like the WoW story did. Or other WoW stories, such as China wanting to limit the amount of time people play it.

Let's go back to the topic, please, instead of digging deeper into the extremes.

netniwk · Dec 27, 2007, 01:42 PM // 13:42

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cacheelma

I solo mostly in WoW because I don't have much time to play so I can't raid. I usually have to do something while playing and have to go afk once in a while so I usually can't group with people for instances. Does the fact that I don't have the best gears on my char make me "less competitive"?

Yes it does,especialy on gear based characters.

Shuuda · Dec 27, 2007, 03:01 PM // 15:01

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cacheelma

How do you know people have never died because of Guild Wars? (I don't think you can say a normal game can actually "kill" someone) Maybe someone has died, but the game isn't popular enough for the reporters to care?

Do I have to, say, kill myself off by playing GW without eating for you to say that "oh, they're comparable"?

It doesn't matter if the game is popular or not, if the death involves a video game, or has some (even the thinnest) Link to video games, the media will go on a "video games (not the half arsed parents who can't enforce simple rules) are evil" rampage.

tmr819 · Dec 27, 2007, 03:20 PM // 15:20

I have played both WoW and GW extensively. The original post here was very interesting. Thank you, Zinger. In general, my sense was that you feel WoW is the better of the two games.

My own observations (based on what I look for in a game) on the two games can be stated fairly succinctly:

(1) Graphics. GW wins. WoW has some nice landscapes, but I find it feels more like a Saturday morning cartoon. The GW world just looks better. (One point in WoW's favor, however: animals leave pawprints, not shoeprints, in the dust and snow. It always bugs me that my ranger's cat -- and Zhed -- leave human shoeprints. Sheesh!

)
(2) Story. GW wins. GW has an actual story that you work your way through; WoW does not. WoW has a lore backdrop for its quests, which is not the same thing.
(3) Solo player accessibility. Kind of a toss-up here. Most of WoW can be soloed, quest-wise, but not the dungeons. I found grouping to be pretty miserable in WoW, and the dungeons take too long (half the time can be spent finding the group you need--or that "one healer" you need). There is no Dunkoro to take along so you can just go. However, once a group has formed, I have to say I prefer WoW, which feels more like a real group working together, with everyone contributing, to achieve a goal.
(4) Guilds. Draw. Both games play better if you find a good guild. However, I think the guild mechanism itself inherently favors more serious gamers. Casual gamers do not play enough to build the kind of relationships that make a guild work as effectively for them. The support and design system for guilds in WoW is better, imo.
(5) Interface. WoW wins. It is far more customizable (though it can get a bit cluttered!). The chat options make more sense in WoW. The guild window is more helpful, etc.
(6) Instances. Another draw. WoW has well-designed instances, and GW also has enjoyable instances (I am referring here specifically to GW's dungeons/missions, not the instanced regions). The big difference is that, dungeon-wise, WoW's instances are for player groups only. GW, however, has a "workaround" in its Heroes/henches. This gives solo players and small groups (2 to 3 people) the option of completing a dungeon/mission on their own terms and in their own timeframe. You absolutely cannot do this in WoW. WoW's instances are designed for group play only. Period. This is not necessarily good or bad, but it makes WoW's instances much less accessible to casual players, imo.
(7) Travel. GW wins. That first long gryphon ride in WoW is fun... But, have mercy, the long travel times in WoW get really, really old really, really fast.
(8) Class distinctions. WoW wins. I really think WoW has done a better job of making classes unique, with a wider variety of skills. There is nothing in GW to compare to "sheeping," "stealthing", "underwater breathing", "rooting", "shape changing", "teleportation", etc. Although GW does have some nice skill options, such as a necromancer minion master, that WoW doesn't have, I'd say WoW offers a greater and more distinct variety of abilities.
(9) Social/"Real-World Feel". WoW wins. In WoW, you can form partnerships on the fly just about anywhere because you run into people all the time in your travels. I think this really gives an edge to WoW in contrast to the relatively solitary experience you have in GW.

All in all, I have enjoyed both games tremendously, but I generally prefer GW because of its graphics, combat system, single-player accessibility, and free-to-play model. My biggest peeve with WoW was that playing as a predominantly solo/casual/"groups occasionally"-type player makes you feel, especially as you level up, like a "second-class" citizen in Azeroth, whereas in Tyria it hardly seems to matter what your style of play is -- very little in Tyria is "off-limits" to solo players, whereas much of the good (instance/raid) content (i.e., the best gear and instance experiences) in WoW is restricted to group-oriented/dedicated gamers only.

That said, if the wait for GW2 is very long with nothing in between to retain my interest, I will probably return to WoW for a while before GW2 comes out. My hope fro GW2 is that it will incorporate what "works" from an MMO such as WoW, while retaining GW1's best qualities.

netniwk · Dec 27, 2007, 03:47 PM // 15:47

^
aprove the above post.

AceeBlueEagle · Dec 27, 2007, 03:52 PM // 15:52

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sha Noran

Zinger, despite all of the shit that everyone gives you, you really don't deserve it. Being cynical about Guild Wars doesn't mean you don't know exactly what you're talking about... which you do.

I think that the primary reason you hear more Guild Wars players complaining about Guild Wars grind than you do WoW players complaining about WoW grind is because when you spend 20 hours straight raiding Black Temple, you have a chance of getting the sweetest and most powerful loot in the entire game... but when you spend 10 hours straight raiding Slaver's Exile in HM, you get a shitty Ritualist green that no one will even take from you for free.

Either one makes me run off screaming... more than 1-2 hours in the chair anymore for any game makes me crazy.

I do agree that the loot in WoW is huge... just give me admin level 3 access to the servers and the ".additem" command line reference, and I'm a happy camper. Well, that and the ".die" command for epic bosses with quadrillion hp.

cebalrai · Dec 27, 2007, 03:58 PM // 15:58

About me and my WoW and GW experience... I used to be a relatively hardcore-ish gamer during my bachelor days. I'd play 2-5 hours at a time maybe three nights per week, with shorter 1-2 hour sessions another three nights.

Then I found a chick and married her. Now I play here and there and only find the time for extended sessions maybe 2-3 times per month.

I canceled my WoW account. Why? Because I'm not paying a monthly fee for gaming that I can now do only casually. I was feeling like I was wasting my money by not playing, which of course I was.

I'm certainly going to keep my GW account because the game works well for people with different amounts of time to game. I don't have even close to the amount of time necessary for a WoW level grind anymore. The game just isn't worth it if you can't play it an awful lot IMO. GW is the total opposite.

I wish the OP would have mentioned this in his review.

Bryant Again · Dec 27, 2007, 04:23 PM // 16:23

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shuuda

/waits for Zinger to post but most likely won't.

Are you looking for a fight or something?

Quote:

Originally Posted by tmr819

(3) Solo player accessibility. Kind of a toss-up here. Most of WoW can be soloed, quest-wise, but not the dungeons. I found grouping to be pretty miserable in WoW, and the dungeons take too long (half the time can be spent finding the group you need--or that "one healer" you need). There is no Dunkoro to take along so you can just go. However, once a group has formed, I have to say I prefer WoW, which feels more like a real group working together, with everyone contributing, to achieve a goal.

Comparing or evaluating games based off of solo compatibility is akin to rating off Team Fortress 2 because there's no deathmatch mode.

Quote:

Originally Posted by cebalrai

I wish the OP would have mentioned this in his review.

Mentioned, what? That WoW takes up a lot of time? (thanks for pointing out the typo)